Succession Stories E44: Identity Shifts | William and Christopher Yanakos - Reli




Laurie Barkman interviews William and Christopher Yanakos of Reli. Father and son share pivots in the company's 40-year history that transformed the business. At the heart of Reli’s success is a strong leadership bond that has steered them through significant transitions. Harnessing powerful technologies like machine learning and predictive analytics was key. More than technology, Bill acknowledged a leadership humility when it was time to shift the company's strategy and identity towards a future inspired by Chris' vision.


Listen in to learn more about:

  • How frontier technologies such as machine learning can create value

  • Embracing innovation and transition in a multi-generational business

  • Adapting your business culture

  • Owning your competitive differentiation


Show Links


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Succession Stories E44 Transcript:


Welcome to Succession Stories insights for next-generation entrepreneurs. I'm Laurie Barkman. I've spent my career bringing an entrepreneurial approach to mature companies struggling with change. As an outside executive of a third-generation 120-year-old company, I was part of a long-term succession plan. Now I work with entrepreneurs privately held companies and family businesses to develop innovations that create enterprise value in transition plans to achieve their long-term goals. On this podcast, listen and while I talk with entrepreneurs who are driving innovation and culture change, I speak with owners who successfully transition their company and others who experienced disappointment along the way. Guests also include experts in multi-generational businesses and entrepreneurship. If you are a next-generation entrepreneur, looking for inspiration to grow and thrive, or an owner who can't figure out the best way to transition their closely held company, this podcast is for you.


What if your company could unlock millions from your data? If you're interested in exploring how artificial intelligence, machine learning, and other frontier technologies can be a catalyst for revenue or profits in your business, here's an invitation. Book an initial call with me to talk about our innovation process. We go from a pre-problem statement discussing challenges and opportunities to an identified solution in just two days. Go to smalldotbig.com/contact today.


Be sure to subscribe to get future Succession Stories episodes directly in your preferred podcast player and follow the show on LinkedIn.




Laurie Barkman:

This episode was special because it was the first time I spoke with the first and second generation together and it's my first time having a father-son interview on the show. Bill and Chris Yanakos share their personal stories and humility about transitioning to the next generation. Nearly 40 years ago Bill founded WorkWell, an occupational medical company. Since then, they have embraced new ideas, technologies, and a company rebrand to Reli, but the path to next-generation innovation had some ups and downs. One of my favorite parts of this interview is when Bill recounts why he rejected Chris' new ideas. He said it's because it's not how they've always done things. It took some time for him to realize that it was he who needed to make a change in how he was looking at his son and his company. Listen in to hear about how the company embraced new strategies and innovations using predictive analytics and machine learning to drive market differentiation and growth.




Laurie Barkman:

Good morning, I am really excited about today. I am joined by Bill and Chris Yanakos. This is the first time I've had a father-son. This is the first time I've had Gen one and Gen two together, so this is a bit of firsts here on Succession Stories. So welcome, gentlemen. Thanks for being with me this morning.



Chris Yanakos:

Morning.


Bill Yanakos:

Pleasure to be here.



Laurie Barkman:

For anyone watching on YouTube, you'll get to see father-son. They definitely look alike; there's definitely some similarities here, and so we'll talk about both of you and your company. So Bill, why don't we start with you? Can you introduce yourself and tell us about the company's history?




Bill Yanakos:

Sure, Laurie. Actually founded the company 38 years ago, so 1982 was the first year of operation. The company has gone through various iterations over the 38 years. I'd like to say that I started this endeavor with a well-formulated business plan and anticipated what would be necessary and how to implement a startup company in the early 80s, and none of that happened. In fact, I had been working at Pittsburgh National Corporation in Human Resources for a number of years, and I wanted to do something on my own. I actually started a wellness center, which was my first endeavor. That wellness center had a physical therapy unit attached to it. It was essentially a sports medicine type of operation. It was about 30 years ahead of its time. I encountered all the typical difficulties of a startup and through those early years, it was, frankly, touch and go as to whether the facility would survive.


Where Reli actually came from was out of this wellness center. I recognized that I could not support this facility with fitness revenue, and I was looking for a means by which I could obtain referrals into this physical therapy center. I had contacted various physicians, I was not getting much participation by the physician community. A number of individuals who I knew had gone into an endeavor back in those days of what's referred to as private rehab. Private rehab focused on the resolution of chronic maligning workers' compensation patients. I recognized there was somewhat of a market there, I hired a part-time physician and a nurse, and I went out to various insurance companies to see if they would be interested in any evaluation and rehabilitation program for individuals who were post-injury approximately 12 months. I anticipated in the first year, we may get 50 referrals. In fact, in the first year, we got 750 referrals so obviously, I had found a market and in doing so, I began to try to shape a program that was a bit more refined than what I had started with.



Chris Yanakos:

What Bill hasn't told you is that all the while, the corporate wellness center was failing. Catastrophically. You have this great genesis of a business while this other business is just absolutely imploding. Bill always downplays how much stress that must have been; a tremendous amount of pressure to make that transition, and pivot in this business while really being under so much scrutiny and financial pressure, I mean, it really was a challenge.



Bill Yanakos:

Yeah, I think Laurie, honestly, as with most startups, I had no formal business training. I have a graduate degree in Behavior Science, and a lot of the genesis to this wellness center came from the fact that I played football in college. I knew something about athletic injuries and I knew a bit about rehabilitation and fitness, obviously. What I found interesting was how effectively I could convince myself that I knew what I was doing and I think with most startups, and with most entrepreneurs, they are by nature, salespeople, and the discipline of selling oneself into an opportunity is compelling. That took a number of years to unlearn and to realize that the key to making decisions was to consider why it may not work instead of convincing yourself that it would work.



Laurie Barkman:

That is a beautiful way to sort of phrase that startup time, where you were really relying on your experience but at the same time, you're acknowledging you really didn't have the experience in the business side, but you had this experience on what it takes maybe on the rehab and wellness, just from some of the things you experienced - a whole lot of unknowns, though, as you got started. Chris was explaining that there was a pivot there, which added to the stress of being a startup. So today, bringing us up to a little bit of the current day, tell us a little bit about the company, Reli, today.




Bill Yanakos:

Yes, we are, in fact, in what's referred to as the occupational medicine space. Occupational medicine takes two forms. One is direct medical care of individuals who have received work-related injuries, which are covered by workers' compensation insurance. This would be the occupational medicine clinic, which we have four up in the greater Pittsburgh area. The broader network managed care approach to occupational medicine, as stated, is a national 42 state network of providers, medical providers, which would include physicians, physical therapy, operations, diagnostic centers, and in that network side of the business, we are actually contracting with insurance companies. We receive a book of business from them which would be the employers that they insure and then we are managing the supply chain of medicine, so to speak. We are scheduling initial examinations, we are scheduling and administrating all of the necessary medical care for an individual to return to work.




Chris Yanakos:

This was a really interesting pivot for us out of exclusively the clinic locations. When you're talking about owning and operating facilities, you're talking about pretty expensive cost centers without really any guarantee that the work is going to come in the front door and so in the early 2000s when I was getting involved in the business, we worked on this idea of taking network providers we only may use once or twice a year in places that we certainly could not afford to keep a clinic up and running for those two cases, and seeing, "Can we replicate the level of treatment, the quality of treatment that we have in our clinic locations through these network providers? In fact, we found that we could. The great news about that is to get 50 or 60,000 providers into your network does not now mean that you have to build 50,000 clinics. So we were able to expand geographically very quickly, again, a slight pivot in the organization, but it allowed us to go from just a few states to over 40 states and in less than five years.



Laurie Barkman:

That's impressive. This is probably a good segue. Chris, why don't we talk a little bit about you? When you were growing up, your dad had this company, was growing it, he was probably working a lot of hours. When did you start to get curious about the business and think, "Oh, maybe I want to join the company"?



Chris Yanakos:

Well, so my first point of curiosity about the business was, it was really fun to go to these wellness centers because they look like giant playgrounds. However, my dad was under a lot of pressure at the time and so the business honestly didn't look all that appealing. Then as I grew up, I got more involved with it. I understood the challenges of the business. What was really fun about it. Bill, why don't you maybe tell about my first job at the business?



Bill Yanakos:

I think Chris was in high school, and, at that point, the business had maintained some stability. Chris was actually looking for a summer job, and I asked him if he wanted to come into the company and work and get familiar with how things function, and he said yes, I think because he didn't know what I was going to have him do. I gave him literally the lowest of the lowest jobs in the company, in the basement.



Chris Yanakos:

Physically lowest.



Laurie Barkman:

In the basement.



Bill Yanakos:

In the basement doing filing, trying to collect payments from insurance companies, and my thought was, "Well, if he will last a summer doing this, then probably he could end up as an integral part of this organization."



Laurie Barkman:

That's a good weed out tactic.



Chris Yanakos:

Yes.



Bill Yanakos:

That’s right.



Laurie Barkman:

By the summer in the basement, you are likely to come back. Chris, is that how you remember it, too?



Chris Yanakos:

That's exactly how I remember it. I will add that in the basement, I did sit under a pipe that periodically mysteriously banged for no reason. So I don't know. It was so much texture to that summer.



Laurie Barkman:

A lot of texture. That's a good word. So somehow you got convinced to come back after college?



Chris Yanakos:

I did, yes.



Laurie Barkman:

Okay. What was that like when you joined the company? You were right out of college. So you had this idea you're going to join? What was the mentorship like when you first started? Did somebody take you under their wing, was his name Bill or was it someone else?


[Laughter]


Chris Yanakos:

Well, it was a lot of sink, and there was a lot of swim. Before that, I actually had a job for a brief period of time in the ski industry, which was primarily sales and so I was coming in with a selling background, which of course, in any small to medium sized business is always on the list of things that you have to be doing. You always have to be selling and so I came in, and Bill shifted me into doing sales. Better than collections, but a challenging position, getting familiar with a new industry, trying to understand how we fit in it, what our value proposition was. I did get a lot of mentoring from Bill. I also got a lot of experience from having really terrible and embarrassing sales calls where I didn't get it right. Fortunately, Bill was always there to shake it off and, "Let's try another one." In fact, the first major account that I sold after coming to the business Bill and I did together, which was fun. It was kind of a really neat experience, the two of us doing it together.



Laurie Barkman:

The roles that you had, were they in existing departments or were you carving any new territory with some of the roles that you've had?



Chris Yanakos:

We did have an existing sales department, and that's what I initially went into. As I started to move into a little bit more leadership, and we started to make these changes in the structure of the business and how we approach the work that we did, that really became a position outside of those specific departments into an R&D silo that we didn't have before, so that was pretty interesting.



Laurie Barkman:

That is interesting. Bill, when you reflect on Chris coming into the company at that time, and he talks about sink or swim, what do you recall? Was he sinking or swimming? Was he floating at the surface and surviving?



Bill Yanakos:

He was surviving because fortunately, I had afforded him a very good education. He's a smart guy and as a result, he brought to the table a lot of ideas and a certain creativity that, frankly, was really needed. There was a key pivot, Laurie, where I recognized that Chris was going to be a major part of the future. We had actually gone on a sales trip and Chris had, for literally two and a half hours in the car, tried to convince me that a predictive analytics platform would give us the ability to predict outcomes from a database perspective, based on certain categories of injuries. My initial reaction was, "One, that's impossible. Two, it'll never work. Where did you get this idea?"


Actually, over a period of about a year, I recognized that I had to make a change in how I was looking at my son, and how I was looking at the company, I had to. By the way, this was very difficult. I had to let go of being the boss, and I had to let go of the fact that what we had done for some 15 years, may not work five years from now. That, for me, was a personal challenge. Fortunately, my son and I get along very well. We talked about this extensively and I began to see, "Hey, there's a new way of doing what we do. and I need to let go of the reins here and start to listen."


Chris, I don't know if that was your perception or not.



Chris Yanakos:

I think one of the places where your leadership and disposition was always inspiring is that you would do just that. You would be willing to take a step back and realize that, "Hey, there might be perspectives on this that I'm not seeing" and that it was not, as you pointed out, about how we had always done it. Bill said, we had really great communication, the ability to get along, even in the midst of pressure, when we outgrew the building, the second building that the company had been in. The last people to get new offices are the two of us and so we've outgrown this building, my office has been taken, Bill and I are now sitting together in his office. Old detective-style desk and we had to sit there and work together on the different projects that we had. I wouldn't recommend that to everyone but we did a really great job with it. So much so that we moved into a new building, we put a door in between our offices, just as access for the two of us, so that we can leave it open and yell back and forth to each other. I think one of the things in Bill's transition in that leadership was the fact that he was willing to communicate through all of this, even when it was uncomfortable. Even our argument in the car of him saying, "We can't do it" and me saying that we can and so that was really a critical part of our development. Do you see it the same way, though?



Bill Yanakos:

I think for both of us, there was a give and take, Laurie. I think, what I've seen with other entrepreneurs that I have become friends or associated with over the years, is that there is a critical mistake where they do not hand the baton to the next generation. They become stubborn and fixed. Frankly, there's a certain amount of pride involved and I think to effectively have a generational type business, there has to be some humility. There is a point where you have to come together with yourself, so to speak, and say, “You know, maybe I don't know everything,” and I think as a result, Chris was forward thinking. I think he felt comfortable expressing himself and truthfully, I learned a valuable lesson that he's a smart guy and he's going to think of things that wouldn't even occur to me; that technology was a foreign language to me, and so yes, I think the give and take was instrumental in us remaining an effective management team.



Laurie Barkman:

There's a lot of great insights, what you've both just shared, and I love how we went back and forth on it because it is so interesting to hear both of you talk about it. One was the opportunity to share a big idea, and have that big idea be debated. It wasn't immediately accepted and so, sometimes it takes a little bit of friction to get to the right answer, so that two and a half-hour car ride was a pretty pivotal moment in your history together because that's also, Chris, when Bill saw you differently, he saw you in a different light, because you were putting together an idea that could take the company to the next level, and really into this next-generation leadership. Then Bill for you seeing Chris in that light and seeing him in that way. You knew he was talented, you knew he was smart, he could sell. But did you see him as that forward-thinking leader? Probably not till that day and so that sounds like a pretty important car ride in your history together. I love that story. I was curious, also for the management team, were there any other candidates that could have been considered to ascend to the president role besides Chris?



Bill Yanakos:

Frankly, there was a sort of COO in place at that time, but very much of the old school of Reli, so I did not see that individual as the next step COO. There was a transition over a period of probably a couple of years, where Chris' insight and his ideas and talent became so obvious that it was just a logical progression to have him move into that position.



Chris Yanakos:

If I could put a little bit more texture around the old and new here, we went from an organization that was directly providing care, right, this very hands-on in these clinic locations. What I had recommended was we take all of this data that we have collected, we do some statistical analysis, we do some machine learning, and we figure out the things that drive the best outcomes in these claims, based exclusively on the diagnosis code and the information we have collected, so no hands on information. Then we use that to provide transparency to our clients, our providers, our stakeholders, our internal team, on how do we do the best job for this patient? How do we help this patient recover as effectively as possible? The problem with this was from old to new, was that it's all happening somewhere else? It's invisibly happening, and it's not the same as being engaged in an appointment and reviewing a note and going through that. I think as we moved into the new that was a big identity shift for the organization.



Laurie Barkman:

You recently went through this identity shift, more specifically, I understand, with a name change because Bill, you mentioned that the old name was Work Well, and the new company name is Reli. Has this been in market within the last year?



Bill Yanakos:

Yes, the rebranding actually was completed in June of 2020. We had been working on the rebranding of the organization for probably upwards of 18 months. WorkWell was the original name, which was really, in the industry, tied to direct care. In moving into a network perspective, and the predictive analytics, and more of a database management approach, we realized we needed a new name.



Chris Yanakos:

We used the opportunity of this pandemic pause to get us there. When the pandemic hit there, certainly we experienced the fear and uncertainty that everyone did. Certainly, nobody was having any fun, but we used that pause to set in our culture that we would come out of this a better company than we went into it. Part of that was, we didn't have some of the other things that we were used to working on regularly which gave us time to dedicate resources to finishing this rebrand and making sure the collateral was all really good and all of those things that otherwise might have gotten knocked down your priority list. We tried to make use of this pandemic pause, which we are hopefully, on the way out of and back to regular business.



Laurie Barkman:

The pandemic pause, yes, that's good that you paused and didn't stop. There's a really great article I'll include in the show notes that I did mention on another episode, where I had a great conversation with Sean Ammirati. He and I talked about corporate innovation at mature companies. One of the things I like about your story today is we're talking about succession but we're also talking about innovation, and what does the next generation do differently? It ties in really well with that, and so this article - I think it was a McKinsey article - talked about the successful companies that are going to come out of the recession caused by that pandemic are probably the ones that have shored up their balance sheet, made sure operations are good, made sure their people are safe, their customers are safe. That's step one, if you will. That's a very big step one, but that's step one and in parallel, keeping the innovation initiatives going is really the key so that this pause that you mentioned, Chris, was a pause of maybe business as usual with clients because you couldn't physically see them for a while, and you couldn't see your employees for a while. But at the same time, though, you didn't give up on this rebrand, you didn't give up on the push to a new market position, and keeping your new data analytics approach coming to market the way that you want. I think that's an awesome thing that you've shared with us. Any learning so far about the rebrand? Are you seeing that the market is adopting your new positioning?



Chris Yanakos:

What we're seeing is that then even just the name change itself created the opportunity for us to continue to develop our identity and so one of the things that we've always done as an organization, this goes back to Bill, at the very start. What we did is focus on the patient recovery process. In fact, we're the only patient recovery process partner out there in the industry. What we have learned is that if you do a better job helping someone get well, that all of the other stakeholders in the process, get better outcomes. Part of this rebrand was continuing to push that part of our culture and part of our identity forward, that we need to be efficient. We need to be effective. But we also need to realize that we're treating patients right. That was a really key thing for us to push forward and the rebranding is something that the market has responded to.



Laurie Barkman:

That's fantastic. Bill, from the history and the legacy standpoint, the company's got a different name. Now your name is not literally on the door, but certainly, your imprints are everywhere. As you now see the company with a new name, and there's a new business positioning and new market positioning out there, how does that make you feel?



Bill Yanakos:

Well, very positive. Again, everything is a learning process. I'm at the stage now where I'm comfortable turning over responsibility to other people. I've recognized that the company is going to be as successful as the talent pool that we have. For entrepreneurs, I think that's difficult because in the back of your mind, you started this and you still think to some extent that you have all the best ideas. At this stage, seeing the company evolve with a new identity, and frankly, a new management team, and a new approach to strategic planning, I'm now in more of an advisory position, I'm looking more big picture. I'm consulting with the process itself, but I'm not interrupting the process. I give it guidance, I give it some direction but it's time for me to step back to some extent, and watch this magnificent management team I have do what they do best. It's actually very encouraging, Laurie.



Chris Yanakos:

Reli has a great management team. This is the best management team we've ever had as an organization and it's also the first time we've had a management team, where we really want to build them into leaders. Honestly, if any member of our management team got a job to be in the C suite somewhere else, we would probably say, "Great! Take the knowledge that you have here and try and create a great organization wherever you go," and Bill has been instrumental in driving that.



Laurie Barkman:

That's fantastic. For both of you, you have such a close relationship, you used to share this office, then you had the door, you're very close as father and son, and as co-workers in the company. I wanted to make it a little personal for you, and give you each a turn to tell the other person if there was something that maybe you haven't told them before, about how you feel about them, maybe something you admire about them or something you're proud of about them. Chris, you want to go first?



Chris Yanakos:

Sure. I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but I have never seen someone who has the capacity to work the way Bill did while founding this company, but at the same time, to be receptive and humble and realize that his ideas weren't always the perfect ideas. That is so challenging as a person and I just am so grateful to have had that example set, for me of hard work, and of humility, and of caring. I have always really appreciated that, Dad.



Billy Yanakos:

Appreciate that, Chris. I can tell you very straightforwardly what I most admire about my son. First is his honesty. Chris tells the truth, no matter what. Secondly, his faithfulness. Chris has had many, many opportunities to do other things. But he has been loyal and faithful to me personally to the organization. He has gone through the thick and thin, he's the one I go to for encouragement. When I'm down, he will be there telling me that everything is going to be fine and he's an uplifting force. I will mention this personal story which just not many people know. My son donated 60% of his liver to his mother for a transplant surgery to literally save her life. The accolades I could pour on my son, I think I could take days doing, but at the top of the list, his honesty, and as well, his faithfulness and his loyalty to me. Never forget it.



Laurie Barkman:

Those are beautiful sentiments. Thank you for sharing those. Is there anything else that either of you would like to share that I didn't ask you about today?



Chris Yanakos:

One thing that I wanted to talk about a little bit is, we've taken this progressive approach in technology. Starting in the process, we knew that it would have to continue to develop. You couldn't reach a point and say this is it, we don't have to do anything else. We just recently found out that Medicare has made some changes to create some safe harbors in workers' compensation that allow for performance-based reimbursement. For the last 30 years, you haven't been able to pay a provider who does a better job more. One of the reasons is there wasn't a good way to measure it. Our predictive analytics, and the transparency that we provide, does provide a way to measure it in a very unique and accurate way to measure it and CMS just changed those regulations, it actually changes in six days. We are moving as one of the first companies if not the first company in 30 years into value-based or performance-based reimbursement for providers to try and align their behavior with what we know produces the best clinical outcomes. This is really exciting. because nobody's gotten to do it so we set that development as a priority and we haven't stopped doing that. I hope that someday, someone will walk in and come up with an idea that can push us even further, so we're really excited about that.



Laurie Barkman:

That's super cool. Just to put a time stamp on this in case people listen to it, that they haven't been released, but they are in the market. This is January 2021 so depending on when folks listen to the show, the CMS rules may have been out for a while, let's say a month or more. That's super cool. I think you mentioned the strategic planning bill earlier, one of the things in strategic planning is to consider external threats and obstacles and not to shine the negative light on CMS has an obstacle but certainly can't with regulations, it certainly can hamper what you're trying to accomplish. The fact that - what did you say, in 30 years - it hasn't changed, here we are and they're making some changes that you've been well-positioned for. So another kudos to your forethought for both of you and the company and management team, to put your company in a place to benefit from that shift in the regulatory environment. That's pretty cool. Bill, anything that you want to add?



Bill Yanakos:

Just just a point of being very excited about where we are, again, innovation, which you mentioned early on, Laurie, I like the fact that Chris and our management team are on the front edge of innovation when it comes to the workers' compensation industry. The predictive analytics and the building blocks up to this point allow us now to take advantage of this regulatory change. Again, I'm frankly very proud of the fact that I had forward-thinking people, and that instead of being crippled by regulation, we're able to take advantage of it. So all good things looking forward.



Chris Yanakos:

And it produces results. That's the other great thing - it's not like we did all this activity to not be able to demonstrate improvement. We've gone through all these growth iterations and brand iterations and pivots to show that the system that we use produces dramatically better. We're talking about 50 or 60% better results compared to unmanaged claims. It's fun that the ideas that we had turned into real results for the stakeholders.



Laurie Barkman:

That's fantastic. The very last question for you both is if you have a favorite quote or something that you like to talk about all the time regarding leadership or entrepreneurship. Chris, why don't you go first?



Chris Yanakos:

I have an Eisenhower quote that I like, which is that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.


Plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.

That is so true. "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face," which I think someone used already.



Laurie Barkman:

That’s a Mike Tyson quote.



Chris Yanakos:

That's a Mike Tyson quote. Plans are useless but planning is indispensable. You've got to do that process, you've got to do that work or you can't get to a place where you can pivot because you just don't understand, so that's mine.



Laurie Barkman:

That's a very important quote. I like that a lot. Bill, how about for you?



Bill Yanakos:

Something that I rely on on a regular basis, and it is that you will know when you are a mature manager when the needs of your people are more important than your own.


Put your people first and then if your people are taken care of you will always be taken care of.


Laurie Barkman:

That seems to really wrap up the culture that you've created at your company, Bill. I'm not surprised that that's the quote that you shared. It was wonderful to talk with you both today. If companies or individuals want to find you, what's a great way to find you both and find Reli?



Chris Yanakos:

LinkedIn is a great way to connect with us to find out more about what we have going on. You can even reach out to us directly there. Or you could reach out to sales@relipartner.com



Laurie Barkman:

Awesome. Thank you both so much for coming on this episode. It was really special to have both of you together.



Bill Yanakos:

We appreciate it.



Chris Yanakos:

Right. Thank you so much.



Bill Yanakos:

Thank you very much.



Laurie Barkman:

Innovation, transition growth. Easy to say but hard to do.


If you're an entrepreneur facing these challenges. I get it. I work with businesses from small to big for strategic planning with your team to achieve your vision.


Visit smalldotbig.com to schedule a call with me. I'd love to connect with you. Be sure to catch the next Succession Stories episode with more insights for next generation entrepreneurs.


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